Donna Troy: The Woman and The Hero

Is one of many now long dead Internet 1.0 Fansites that was a pretty important part of my early history as an Internet dwelling Nerd.  But in-spite of how Nostalgic I am for it I sometimes misremember the name by dropping the definite article as "Donna Troy: Woman and Hero".

The Website is Archived via the Waybackmachine, but in a way that concerns me.  My first instinct going there is to want to find what the website looked like when I first found it in 2003 or 2004.  However while it says there are Captures from those years they don't properly load.  So the closest I can get is a Capture from June 2005 when the latest Update was the March 2005 Update when it covered the Return of Donna Troy special being announced, I remember when I saw that update happen, 2005 was a very pivotal year in my DC Fandom.

The most recent Capture before that which actually loads is an August 2002 Capture when the latest Update to the site had been in October 2001.  The revelation that even Waybackmachine Captures aren't guaranteed to last forever has me worried about a lot of our preservation of a lot of Internet History.

Now those of you who know Donna's history may have noticed that I just outed myself as a Donna Troy fan who is strangely most Nostalgic for when she was dead.  That's because this is when I became a fan, see I got into Donna reading this site I stumbled upon before I'd yet read a single Comic Donna actually appeared it.  

It's interesting really to become a fan of a Western Comic Book character while they're Canonically dead, especially during this Post-Crisis yet pre Infinite Crisis era, the same phenomena applied to my Stephanie Brown Fandom.  It's hard to be as mad at the story that killed her as most of her fans are when that was already part of her Lore when I got into it.  And hard to be that upset at not getting any new stories (for awhile) when all her stories are new to me.  I'm first learning this character's history as a story with an already defined beginning middle and end, or in Donna's case several beginnings and a middle and an end.

Donna Troy is one of a few DC characters for whom how her origin keeps being messed with by Crisis related shenanigans is a commonly made fun of Meme.  But as things stood during this period I really saw her history as indeed uniquely complicated but not incoherent.  Like each new Retcon was adding to what we already had in a way that fleshed her out rather then replacing or discarding anything.  But maybe it only felt that way to me because this Fansite did a good job of presenting her History as one cohesive Story.

However in time DC grew obsessed with starting absolutely everything over from scratch every few years.

This site's last update was in 2009.  Now we finally have her in Live Action and while on paper The Titans show doesn't give her a history very similar to this Era of the Comics, Conor Leslie's performance is great and somehow managed to feel like exactly the character I became a Fan of in part via this Website.

I finally saw the Titans TV show

I'm as a much of a Batman fan as I am largely for what's been done in adaptations, my favorite actual Comic Book franchise has always been the Teen Titans.  I have fondness for their Silver/early Bronze Age incarnation, I consider the Wolfman/Perez stuff from the 80s and early 90s among the most important ground breaking comics of all time, I like what I've read of the turn of the century run Linkara considers his favorite incarnation, but my personal Nostalgia is for the Geof Johns run of the mid 2000s.

This personal investment in the Titans and their lore has had me at times pickier about their adaptations then I am of any other Comic Book adaptations.  Thus the 00s Cartoon so many people my age are nostalgic for I always resented and the DCAMU Titans aren't much better.  Both have good qualities I can recognize but they don't speak to the Titans fan within me.

This Titans adaptation is still not the Teen Titans show I would have written.  But all things considered, I love it, underneath everything that should at face value turn me off it has proven that it understands the heart of the Titans comics in ways none of those other adaptations have.

Look I get it, everyone hates DC stuff being dark and gritty now, and for the films I'm more inclined to understand.  But on Live Action TV you have the CW shows that have a much more MCU tone, especially Legends which is practically Silver Age.  So let these writers experiment with doing something darker then a big budget Hollywood blockbuster would ever be allowed to even when technically R rated.

I very heavily enjoyed season 1, but season 2 was even better.  Though frankly I kind of think this show is better watched as if it were one 24 episode season.  To everyone who has a Michael Baily attitude to edgy DC stuff, just grit your teeth and bare through it, trust me the pay off will be more then worth it.

The most important thing about the Titans is that it's about Family, a Found Family to be exact.  That's the core that I feel is missing from every Animated property with the Teen Titans name.  On this show that theme was becoming apparent in only 3 episodes and it really really earns it by the end, but it is a slow burn in a lot of ways.

Donna Troy was my original favorite Comic Book character.  Sometimes I have trouble wrapping my head around the fact that the amount of time Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain have been about equal to her has now long dwarfed the time it was just Donna.  And one thing that has repeatedly frustrated me is Donna not even being in Teen Titans adaptations because of weird complicated Copyright issues.  A decade ago I never would have imagined that I'd get to see a proper Donna Troy in Live Action before Animation, but that's what has happened.  And she was great, she was perfect, this is exactly the character I have been a fan of for longer then YouTube has existed.  And in her I honestly think we have the best version of the Wonder Woman lore put to screen so far, I like Gal Gadot's movie and I liked Bloodlines but both are too New52 influenced for my taste.

Deathstroke has been adapted a lot, on prior live action TV shows and in animation and even has a Cameo on the Big Screen now.  But the point of why Deathstroke works has been repeatedly missed time and time again making him just some generic mercenary.  This Titans series in season 2 finally got Deathstroke right because it included Jericho and Rose and while there are deviations it ultimately does include them properly.

Another comic book element never seen in adaptations before is Dick Grayson's career as a Cop, whether you like it or hate it, it's interesting to finally see it inlcuded.

And I think there is plenty to enjoy about this show for people who aren't all that specifically into the Titans.  KyleKallgreenBHH made that video with the segment where he via Civil War commented on how Superhero stories can bring together things from different genres in ways that would seem randomly nonsensical anywhere else.  This show is also a great example of that, in season 1 the main plot is about Raven so it's an Omen/Haunting of Molly Hartly kind of story, but where else does that kind of story throw in urban crime fighting vigilantes, a space alien, a woman connected to the Amazons of Greek Mythology and a green haired were-tiger?

I hope we get a season 3 before 2020 is over.

Update: Binging

I think I enjoyed this show more then many partly because I binged it.  Season 1 in particular seems like it was written under the pretense of following the Netflix model but then DC changed their minds on how they wanted to handle their streaming service.  But even beyond that I think I'd have been less okay with how season 1 ended if I didn't get to watch season 2 right away, if I spent a year with that being where it ended I'd have felt a little annoyed.

A season 3 is confirmed already, should I wait and binge it too?  I think sometimes the difference between binging and week by week viewing matters less once you're invested.  Like with the Raildex Anime, those shows definitely work better binged so I'm glad I binged it all in November of 2018, but now that I'm invested I can follow Railgun T week by week pretty well.

A lot of complaints about this show are pretty silly.

Dick has had rage issues in the Comics, I've read scenes where he punches the dashboard of his own car.  And like it or not there has been prior precedent for writing him as being more willing to let kill under the right circumstances then Bruce.

And the complaints about how little of the show is them actually doing traditional Superhero stuff and being apart so often, but that's frequently exactly what the Teen Titans comics are actually like, and generally what the ones I'm most fond of are like.  I like that this show isn't forcing itself to follow a traditional formula.

Infinity War has reignited my excitement for Superhero movies.

It's difficult to explain my feelings here.  Since on an individual basis I have generally been liking the Phase Three MCU films the best so far, and yet at the same time was kind of tiring of them as a whole.

But I really wanted the DC Cinematic Universe to be better as someone who's more of a DC fan.  And so when I wound up feeling disillusioned with Batman V Superman it began a slow fading out of my interest in the genre.  And it helped that my discovery of Anime gave me something to fill that void.

It would never have been completely gone, as Batman in particular is my oldest Fandom and and for a long time this genre was the center piece of my Geekdom.  But the last three DC movies were all ones I left the theaters with initially high praise for but that I slowly soured on.  And that it's been basically the same with the new Star Wars movies had me feeling that I may have only Anime to rely on.

But Infinity War was amazing, it managed to truly feel like a Crisis level Event done on the Big Screen in Live Action with Live Actors.

And the knowledge that Donna Troy will be coming to the Titans show they're making also livens me up.

So my investment in this genre is renewed.  Anime is still gonna gonna be what this Blog talks about the most.  But I no longer feel like it was going to inevitably become an Anime only blog.

I just saw the Teen Titans Judas Contract animated movie.

It was enjoyable, the films in this New52 series seem to get better as they go along.  Much of it in this case however is drawing on the original Judas Contract story, more so then the 2000s Cartoon did.

The lack of Jericho I expected.  They tried to make Damien's history with Drathstroke in this universe relevant to the story even though it really still wasn't.

The biggest disappointment for me was them flat out not showing the battle between Terra and Raven.  That was one of the few things I enjoyed about the 2000s show's version of the story.  And the main moment in this particular film where I thought "if only it wasn't limited to 70 minutes" again.  But then I noticed this run-time is 84 minutes, so they are letting them get a little longer now, but I still think at least a full 90 is necessary for a story like this.

But I have to talk about Terra's characterization, once again we have an adaptation of the story trying to make her less unrepentantly evil.  Now it's weird of me to complain about this since I in-general like depth in characters and like when villains can be redeemed.  In fact that came up in a recent Reblog I did on Tumblr.  However it only bothers me when a story goes out of it's way to send an anti-redemption message.  Terra was a character who never sought redemption, and that really made her stand out compared to other mole/traitor stories in this genre.

However what really makes their characterization of Terra odd here is how they are throwing this aspect into it, even though some moments they want to have play out exactly like in the original Comic.  And so that makes some of Terra's inconsistencies seem less like she's conflicted and more like two different writing philosophies were behind this character.

We got a tease of Donna Troy at the end, I'll watch another of these Teen Titans films if it means we get more of her.

And that leads me to the subject of casting.  None of the main cast of this film, protagonists or antagonists, really wowed me.

Now with these New52 films I don't know how much of the problem is hiring people who don't specialize in voice acting, since I mostly don't even know who these actors are.  It may just as much be my personal preference for the voice acting done in Anime dubs.  And this is a great film to return to that subject on because....

Crispin Freeman was in it, as two characters.  I recognized him immediately as "Scientist" a character who spoke in only one scene he was in.  That moment was the most my ears perked up listening to this, and it was all wasted.  In the credits I noticed he was also Speedy in the 5 years earlier flashback at the beginning.  In that role he showed he had more range then even I thought.  Still it was another small role.  To WB/DC the cream of the crop of Anime Dub actors is merely a filler actor for roles you won't waste an expensive star on.

Crispin Freeman should have been Brother Blood, just think about how awesome he is as roles like Kotomine Kirei, he'd have been perfect for Brother Blood.  Instead we got the lamest most uninspired cult leader I've ever heard.

This Slade had his moments, but I still prefer Ron Pearlman, an opinion that arguably goes against the general philosophy I've expressed here.

All of the Titans themselves could have been improved by Anime actors.  This Raven in particular is such a disappointment to me, and not like it is for others who are nostalgic for Terra Strong's Raven.  Tara Strong is great but Raven was not her best role.  In my opinion we still don't have an ideal Raven voice.  There are several Anime Dub actresses who could make a great Raven.

Now if Warner does want to take advice for the future.  Get Kari Walgren for Donna Troy, a voice similar to what she does for Saber/Artoria could be great for Troia.

It would be Sexist if the Wonder Woman movie didn't have a Love Interest

I've seen a few people on Social Media complain, on Feminist grounds, that they hate how it seems the Wonder Woman film will have a "male lead/love interest".

They're worried about issues of female characters continually being defined by their relationships with men.  Yes, if the Wonder Wonder movie doesn't pass the Bechel Test it'll be a big problem, but she can do that while having a male love interest just as male leads having a female love interest doesn't get in the way of them broing down with their bros talking about bro stuff.

They're concerned about the stereotype that a film needs romance to appeal to women.  But they're forgetting counter to that is a perception that romance is an obstacle to appealing to men, that in all those male Superheroes films your typical bro is fast forwarding through all the lovey dovey scenes to get to the action.  I feel like removing romance from WW would send the message that they needed to do so to make a female lead Superhero film acceptable to male viewers.  Stereotypes about what Men are supposed to like and be interested in are just as important for Feminism to tare down.

And there are a loud minority of haters out there encouraging that, constantly hating on the female leads in Superhero films and TV shows, whining about Melodrama not realizing there would be no Superhero genre without Melodrama.  This is an opportunity to expose them for the misogynists they are when they don't complain about Steve being written the same way, or if their complaints about him are different.

I'm a cizhet guy who likes Romance in the fiction I watch/read/listen to.  And some of my favorite ships are in the Superheros genre.  Now I'm usually a Femslash shipper, but there are Het pairings I like, like Eren and Mikasa, or Time Drake and Darla Aquista, or Link and Malon.  Or to get closer to the WW corner of the genre, Donna Troy and Terry Long.  Now I like the idea of a Lesbian (to me Lesbian includes Bi and Pansexual Women) Wonder Woman, but I think her introduction needs to include her default Love Interest, just as you wouldn't start a Superman saga without Lois Lane, and I'd be very upset if someone ever tried.

I want the Wonder Woman film to be treated the same as every Superhero film, that's how to make it work, not by doing things different simply because you think you have to do them different for a Woman.  Every successful Superhero film has included to varying degrees of plot relevance the love life of it's titular Hero.  To have Wonder Woman's movie be the first in the genre without Romance you risk possibly sending the message that a Woman can't handle juggling her love life with Super-heroics as well as a Man can.

Even Batman, who's comics are generally the least dependent on Romance of any major DC character, has still had a Love Interest in all 7 of his movies, and ironically the one where his Love Interest is the least prominent is Batman And Robin.  There is no correlation there but it's kinda funny to me.

If you want to change the status quo of Romance always needing to be in a Superhero film, fine, but do it with a Male hero.  It is definitely a problem to me that some people think a male lead Superhero films needs a Love Interest in order to not be a Sausage Fest (unless it's a Superhero Team then the Smurfette Principle works), as if there is no other way a Woman could be important in a Man's life. I'd like to see a Batman film where Leslie Tompkins or a Batgirl or Oracle provide the film it's needed femininity, preferably all three (I'm actually not fond of Leslie, but she is important to the Batman mythos).  Winter Solider has made some progress in that direction, Steve Roger's love life is indeed part of the film, but the female lead is Black Widow and they're not written to be romantically linked.

Wonder Woman will finally be as big as Superman and Batman are when Steve Trevor is a household name just as much as Lois Lane and Selina Kyle are.

I am concerned about how the latest announcement about them looking for a "male lead/love interest" doesn't name the character, as if who Wonder Woman's male love interest is should be some kind of mystery.  I suppose it is to non Comic readers but most who follow these kinds of announcements are not casual fans.  If they're proclaiming Steve not an interesting character and instead inventing someone new, then that is really bothersome.  Steve Trevor has been portrayed inconsistently in Comics history and that can create problems for a writer, but frankly so has Catwoman and even Lois Lane who in the 50s and 60s was not the character we know and love now.

To me making Steve Trevor interesting is easy, make him like Steve Rogers if he had been born with a more normal physic.  Or like a male Peggy Carter.  Or maybe the MCU's Bucky Barns is who he's most similar to, the gist of what makes those 3 characters work is kinda the same, same with Sam Wilson.  You know what, Steve Trevor is a character where I'd be Ok with them changing his Ethnicity.  The gist is, Steve is a solider and/or agent, he does what he thinks is right, he's never intentionally misogynist but he has some of those pervasive gender issues most men have and knowing Diana helps him become self aware of those to overcome them.

People are concerned that using Steve as the audience surrogate for the male viewers would detract from Diana being the star, only if a bad writer writes it.  The Audience surrogate should never be the lead character in a Superhero film whatever the gender dynamics are.. Etta Candy should be the other audience surrogate.  They should be Wonder Woman's Lois and Jimmy.

But people are legitimately concerned a female Superhero movie won't handle the love interest the same way.  I've seen people complain that the Steve/Diana dynamic in the 2009 animated movie was pretty much the opposite of what it should be.  I think they're right to an extent, I had many problems with that film, but at first I couldn't put my finger on what I didn't like about Steve.

But I also suspect it's bound to be perceived different even if it isn't.  A female character's love interest being very important to her is viewed as undermining her independence somehow. But the male heroes always seem to place their girlfriend high on their priority list.  Same with a woman going to her male love interest for advice or inspiration, or that character helping serve as her conscience, even though the female love interests constantly serve that function for male heroes.

Maybe there is a risk Hollywood would handle Romance in WW in a fundamentally different way.  But ignoring it altogether would be far more fundamentally different.

Pretty Little Liars is the most Feminist show on TV right now, many won't give it the credit it deserves because of the Chanel it's on, and how it's been marketed at times.  But read Heather Hogan's recaps or listen to the Bros Watch PLL Too podcast.  All 4 leads on that show have love interests, 3 of whom are straight, and they have no trouble handling them in a way that does not detract from the 4 liars having Agency and being strong lead characters.  Spencer Hasting is the modern Sherlock Holmes to me, and Troian is the spitting image of Donna Troy.

This blog post is me trying to express better what I said in an earlier Tumblr post.

Here is why I'm upset about the upcoming Supergirl show

I'd been thinking for awhile, and had expressed on IMDB, how I kind of don't trust a channel other then the CW or ABC Family to do a Teen or High School/Collage hour long Drama.  Other Networks are all about being "Adult", especially the non Cable ones, and Glee has no appeal to me.  CBS in particular is a channel that seems to care only about Cop and Lawyer shows.

Then I read that this Supergirl show will start with her being already 24.  And I was like THAT'S NOT SUPERGIRL, THAT'S SUPERWOMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All the Supergirl stories I like from the Comics, from all the various incarnations of Supergirl, are all set with her either in High School or Collage.

It's like her being a female Superman is all they really cared about.  24 is literally the same age Clark Kent was when Smallville ended.

Supergirl was an opportunity to do something like the Early Seasons of Smallville but without the extended Prequel burden or the No Flights no Tights limitation.

I think that's the source of the problem though.  Smallville even though it is by any objective standard the most successful Comic Book based TV show of all time.  Is for some reason known for it's Hatedom rather then it's Fandom.  So they don't want to be confused with Smallville, instead they're just gonna create a show more likely to resemble later Smallvile then early Smallville, which is when the show's quality took a nose dive.

They should have done Powergirl with the premise described for this show.  But that name isn't as marketable.

Supergirl being a Female Superman is a small part of her appeal.  It's also being a younger superhero.  Supergirl could've been the new Buffy or Secret World of Alex Mack, or Pretty Little Liars with Superpowers.  Any of those would have been interesting.  I wanted the drama of her possibly going to school with Nastalia Luthor or Lena Thorul.

But making it so the character's only difference from Superman is being a female Hero just draws attention to how they could have instead given a chance to a Superheroine that isn't linked by name to a male hero.  Like Stargirl, or Zatana, or Black Canary, or heck just give another try to a Wonder Woman pilot.

First Teen Titans ticks me off that it won't have Donna Troy, and now this.  And Gotham as much as I love it keeps screwing over Montoya.  At least Flash is good and Arrow is improving.